Abortion

[Omega]

I'm gonna be honest, I completely and entirily agree with every single Skype arguments. Yeah yeah cunt, curses, whatever that was wrong boo hoo. Still, I think his arguments are very solid, and personal experiences also help with the way people think.

But at the end, this is my idea:
Women can do whatever the hell they want, abort or have the kid with/without fathers consent, they argue it's their body, so be it. Whatever the result may be, and the previous sentence were to be the argument choosen by the woman, then men has no need to stay or be responsable of such woman acts. If she has the kid, then the man has no reason to stay if he doesn't want to, since his opinion was never asked for. If she aborts, then the man can leave if he feels like and leave her alone or stay with her.

You won't let the male mess with the female, then the male has no need to stay with the female.

[Mat]

Banning Skype is stupid tbh. This site just became even more boring and disappointing now imo.

What have I created?

Anyway, my thoughts on abortion are that it should be legal for any circumstance at any time during pregnancy.

You sure? You might want to rephrase that. About 28-32 weeks in the baby is considered formed. At least, organs, hair, etc. So, if we're arguing length of time as a factor for determining what constitutes as life, then "anytime" could be considered... well... not good. Let alone that anytime could also include a few days before the conception. In which case, it would essentially be murder. I don't like saying that, but the child is basically fully formed, brain and all.

That wasn't his arguement. I'm well aware that the baby is formed by then but I still support the right to have an abortion. I wouldn't recommend waiting that long but I support the right of the woman to make the choice when she's ready to. Regardless of any counter argument that I recieve this is my standing on the subject. It is the woman's body, and her right to decide.

[TheRavenHouse]

What have I created?

Anyway, my thoughts on abortion are that it should be legal for any circumstance at any time during pregnancy.

You sure? You might want to rephrase that. About 28-32 weeks in the baby is considered formed. At least, organs, hair, etc. So, if we're arguing length of time as a factor for determining what constitutes as life, then "anytime" could be considered... well... not good. Let alone that anytime could also include a few days before the conception. In which case, it would essentially be murder. I don't like saying that, but the child is basically fully formed, brain and all.

Yeah, I get that, 'cept I don't believe that a human life has any objective value, I think we make our own value, and other people assign value to us. The brain is fully formed as much as a completely blank hard drive is fully formed, I will not weep when it is reformatted. I'm not trying to be edgy, I'm really not, I love humans, I think they're the best thing to ever happen to the world, but potential humans matter as much to me as anything else that doesn't exist.

If a woman wants an abortion, that means she REALLY wants an abortion, it's painful, traumatic, insanely emotional, and for understandable reasons, so if a woman has an abortion I think it's a testament to her resolve and desire to live a good life despite the bad things that happen to her, I respect that and I encourage that. But if you believe that these babies have as much value as postnatal babies, then I understand why you would find it a bit atrocious.

[Omega]

Now you're using philosophy with that about own value and that. If we are going to use that argument, then murder with gun should be legal too. In the end the value of the person i kill is just assigned by others, but he really is nothing but a bag of bones, muscles and blood covered by skin.

Also depends on how you value stuff, if it thinks, if its self-concient, if it speaks, if it walks, whatever. I think it should be a black and white thing, a yes or a no and leave it like that. Women want to abort yes/no, will they consider others in their desition yes/no, will their opinion have any value yes/no. End of the story. If people keep looking for "what if's" then it's useless to try to get to an agreement.

[TheRavenHouse]

Now you're using philosophy with that about own value and that. If we are going to use that argument, then murder with gun should be legal too. In the end the value of the person i kill is just assigned by others, but he really is nothing but a bag of bones, muscles and blood covered by skin.

Not at all, while I am a moral relativist, I don't agree that it's chill to just kill people. If one person thinks someone has no value that doesn't change how other people value that person, and how that person values themselves. Killing that person, regardless of what he is, bones, muscles, brain, is still the destruction of something people care about, almost no one is completely alone in the world. Everyone has someone who cares about them, even if they don't care about themselves, and because of that killing them is wrong.

[Omega]

But you see, that kind of thinking (not saying its bad, its another valid point of view) just like other moral and ethic ways of thinking are what avoid us getting to, like i said before, an agreement. I would like a definite set of reasons, valid ones, that could not be changed by ideologies or ambiguous ways of thinking to why it should be illegal or legal. Nothing involving religion, feelings, just facts and based on those, a desition to be taken.

[TheRavenHouse]

Well I can't really see it as facts, I don't mean to be pretentious, but I don't see the world as black and white, I kinda can't. And really, I can't vote, I'm not a woman, so my being unable to state facts on the matter doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

[Grams]

That wasn't his arguement. I'm well aware that the baby is formed by then but I still support the right to have an abortion. I wouldn't recommend waiting that long but I support the right of the woman to make the choice when she's ready to. Regardless of any counter argument that I recieve this is my standing on the subject. It is the woman's body, and her right to decide.

I agree. It is very much her right to decide. It's just adoption seems like a better option than aborting the child at that late of a stage. Again, her body her choice.

Yeah, I get that, 'cept I don't believe that a human life has any objective value, I think we make our own value, and other people assign value to us. The brain is fully formed as much as a completely blank hard drive is fully formed, I will not weep when it is reformatted. I'm not trying to be edgy, I'm really not, I love humans, I think they're the best thing to ever happen to the world, but potential humans matter as much to me as anything else that doesn't exist.

If a woman wants an abortion, that means she REALLY wants an abortion, it's painful, traumatic, insanely emotional, and for understandable reasons, so if a woman has an abortion I think it's a testament to her resolve and desire to live a good life despite the bad things that happen to her, I respect that and I encourage that. But if you believe that these babies have as much value as postnatal babies, then I understand why you would find it a bit atrocious.

Pretty much what I said to Mat. I don't have the audacity to tell a woman what I think she should do with her unborn child (then again here we all are discussing it). It's her choice, not mine. I have no right. Just that late in the stages I figured adoption might be a better option. Of course, the conception itself is no doubt excrutiating, so I could see why they might want to avoid that as well as putting up their newborn up for adoption. 'Twould be emotional to say the least.

[Mat]

^ Being adopted myself I 100% agree.

[MCToast]

If your against abortion, you should be against masturbation and condoms. It doesn't matter if there's brain activity yet, there would be if it didn't end up in a tissue.

MCToast actually has a point. What qualifies as a potential human life?

As someone mentioned, I believe abortion should be an option if the child shows signs that it has problems or if the mother is in risk of not surviving the birth.

I'm going to use a rough analogy here, but that's kind of like saying if you're against killing someone's dog/cat, then you should be against killing spiders or flies. I know this comparison isn't exactly on the same playing field, and that bugs don't form into household pets like sperm forms into a fetus. But, you get my point. As much as I don't like "rating" stages of life, sperm doesn't have the significance that a partially formed fetus has.

Although, I do agree with having certain criteria to be met. Mother could die in conception, child is immensely deformed, rape, etc. This seems to make the most sense to me so far. This isn't really a black and white subject.

This is a bit late, but I agree that insects are equal to pets and human, also that plants equal too. Sperm isn't a human being, but it's still the same at which point you decide life wont happen. I see the point that sperm isn't a nation, but if you're against abortion you should be against masturbation. Good idea would be a sperm bank if you're against it.

You don't have the right to decide if it should life or not, did it make you or the child unhappy, he/she can kill him/herself if that's what he/she wants.

[Daniël]

If your against abortion, you should be against masturbation and condoms. It doesn't matter if there's brain activity yet, there would be if it didn't end up in a tissue.

MCToast actually has a point. What qualifies as a potential human life?

As someone mentioned, I believe abortion should be an option if the child shows signs that it has problems or if the mother is in risk of not surviving the birth.

I'm going to use a rough analogy here, but that's kind of like saying if you're against killing someone's dog/cat, then you should be against killing spiders or flies. I know this comparison isn't exactly on the same playing field, and that bugs don't form into household pets like sperm forms into a fetus. But, you get my point. As much as I don't like "rating" stages of life, sperm doesn't have the significance that a partially formed fetus has.

Although, I do agree with having certain criteria to be met. Mother could die in conception, child is immensely deformed, rape, etc. This seems to make the most sense to me so far. This isn't really a black and white subject.

Never saw this until Sami quoted it and since it's relevant again I'd like to comment on this too.

The whole idea of masturbating being as bad as abortion is based on the foundation that you kill potential life human life either way. This doesn't say that all beings are equal as the whole issue here is that the potential of human life is destroyed. A fly only has the potential to be a fly and nothing else. This logic still goes up if you believe in superior life forms (which we are compared to any animal (in my opinion)).

[Grams]

The whole idea of masturbating being as bad as abortion is based on the foundation that you kill potential life human life either way. This doesn't say that all beings are equal as the whole issue here is that the potential of human life is destroyed. A fly only has the potential to be a fly and nothing else. This logic still goes up if you believe in superior life forms (which we are compared to any animal (in my opinion)).

Well, he actually did say he believes all life to be equal. And I did mention it was a very rough analogy. But I see what you're saying.

[Yadda]

I firmly believe that life begins at ejaculation.

[Josh]

I thought we agreed that if it adds to the conversation a bump is okay?

[Mitch]

Don't pay any attention to retards who will instantly go fucking NUTS if something is bumped no matter what the content is, it's essentially just as bad as complaining about the bump itself like they did (and yes I realize how hypocritical this is)

As for abortion I can definitely see the mindset of "human potential" even when they are still at a cellular level. However I also think there is specific contexts where abortion is justified, I mean I know the whole rape thing is such a typical argument for pro abortion, but that's because it's got some merit to it. And yeah the usual counter argument is adoption/foster homes but that's still a woman that has to deal with pregnancy for 9 months just to immediately put the baby up for adoption, and 9 months is a long fucking time to be out of the game if you're a college student or in some form of occupation that requires heavy attention. I mean this is fucked up to say but younger women who are sitting at the precipice of building a life for themselves are probably the sort of females who would be targeted more heavily.

I think at it's core the whole adoption argument can be pretty fucking stupid depending on it's justification. Like if the woman DOESN'T have the resources to even CONSIDER taking care of the baby, but is still willing to wait 9 months to give birth to it, then adoption is a great option. What I can't fucking stand is the whole "the baby could be a reminder of her experience with rape" thing, I just think it's really fucking shallow to look at a child and immediately think "rape baby".

I mean i'm not saying a woman with all the tools and money to take care of a baby at her disposal should be should feel obligated to care for it. But don't make an argument berates the child by extension.