Pivot Tweening

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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby Mitch » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:11 am

I kinda fail to see how it doesn't lessen the skill. Like if you're talking about something along the lines of the stretch tool, yeah it makes things less tedious but a base knowledge of angles and 3D still need to be present to do shit with it. Tweening on the other hand is literally removing the process of posing an in between frame which is convenient and what not but fuuuuck I dunno.

Just because it's peterbone and pete is pivot I can't help but secretly have at least 1 foot in the bandwagon and trust he'll do pivot justice but i'm pretty skeptical.
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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby MCToast » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:26 am

Pivot is like a tutorial tool, you can learn and teach animation in a very simple and non-intimidating environment. There's no learning curve for the program. It was perfect...

Still... Stick creator's 225 sticks limit is agony.
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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby SIFTER » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:28 am

In addition to what Elliott said, you guys took this to a whole new level: Our man, Peter, hasn't even finished updating Pivot4, and now you're discussing about wether a certain feature in a software that still hasn't been coded a single letter should exist or not. If we keep making him regret his words, he won't keep us updated as frequently. Just like Elliott said, tweening exists in every skeletal animator but Pivot. It's a natural addition to the software. Plus what MCToast said about the nodes limit.
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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby Mitch » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:33 am

Pretty sure you've already been told by pete himself that he isn't "regretting" anything. Pivot isn't build around DD, DD is built around pivot. We can debate all we like here but he will do what he wants with the program and I don't blame him.

That aside you shouldn't generalize in regards to pivot being your run of the mill skeletal animation program due to it's following, the fact that this forum exists is a testament to that. And by that I mean big changes like this are gonna be a little more touchy and I doubt peterbone is gonna condemn anyone for showing what is just interest in essence.
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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby peterbone » Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:44 am

Sifter wrote:In addition to what Elliott said, you guys took this to a whole new level: Our man, Peter, hasn't even finished updating Pivot4, and now you're discussing about wether a certain feature in a software that still hasn't been coded a single letter should exist or not. If we keep making him regret his words, he won't keep us updated as frequently. Just like Elliott said, tweening exists in every skeletal animator but Pivot. It's a natural addition to the software. Plus what MCToast said about the nodes limit.

Actually, some of the choices I made in Pivot 4 were in preparation for tweening, so in a way I have begun coding it. The way the multiple onion skins work means that each figure has an ID so that the same figure can be associated across frames. This was designed partly for multiple onion skins but also for tweening in the future. It will mean that you'll be able to tween animations made in Pivot 4, but not Pivot 2 or 3. So most of the background work has been done.
Thanks for the interesting discussion. The main thing I'll say is that unlike most tweening animation software, Pivot will always have a single timeline showing the frame images. None of this confusing timeline like flash has. The repeat frame edit box will simply be replaced with a tween frame edit box.
This is still a long way off because I have other ideas for Pivot 5 that require more work than tweening (I won't say what because I still haven't got it working how I'd like, but doesn't include layers). I'd like to finish Pivot 4.2 this year and will be taking time off from work at some point to work on it. This year I've been distracted by other things like proofreading my girlfriend's PhD thesis - and of course juggling.
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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby kellawgs » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:17 am

Peter I'm already getting excited for Pivot 5. I still don't feel used to the idea of Pivot getting updates, it's really awesome.
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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby Caleb » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:53 pm

MCToast wrote:You're supposed to draw each new frame in animation, showing new angles of the character as he moves his head or turns around. Pivot doesn't really teach anything from animation, you'd learn easing and "flow" faster the normal way.

Tweening would take even that out.

Today I learned tweening does easing and flow for you.


Reap wrote:Tweening on the other hand is literally removing the process of posing an in between frame which is convenient and what not but fuuuuck I dunno.

Posing an inbetween frame is part of skill? You literally just continue a motion path to get to the next keyframe's pose. The exact same happens with tweening, except you don't do it yourself, so it takes away the option that you might make it shaky because you moved something wrong. People that do this wrong usually do it wrong because they can't be assed to search what it really is and fix it rather than not knowing how it works.
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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby MCToast » Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:37 pm

I think Reap means animations after tween feature will look straight pose-to-pose. There's hundreds of different inbetween styles.

Flash's motion tween has a easing in and out settings, I suppose it can do arches and whatnot too.
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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby Caleb » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:39 pm

As far as I know Pivot 5 is still not Flash, all Peter Bone is adding is a straight-up simple tween from what I can tell from his posts.

And if your style changes significantly because you're using tweens, you're using tweens the wrong way.


By the way, here's a list of things that will be less tedious because of tweening in case someone wants to bring up that again:
-Slow motion. Oh, I can't wait to use tweening for slow motion, that'll be a godsent tool.
-Camera movements. Self explanatory.
-Any movement with consistent spacing e.g the horizontal movement of a run, or better, a walk. I don't know how tweening will be implemented, but if you can add a tween and then edit the tweening frame you can just have the horizontal spacing for the run/walk all there, all you'll have to do is change poses and bob him up and down slightly every now and then. This should also work to get the aforementioned styles for inbetween frames. In fact, this way of animating would make that require more skill because you'd really have to know what you're doing to change that for the better.
-High fps animations. Some people dislike the feeling a 18 fps animation has vs a 30 fps animation. Just animate the same, put it to 36 fps and add tweens between every frame and it'll look just as good but smoother because double the fps.

That should be enough to make a point. For all those points except slowmotion I'd say it hardly changes the difficulty of animating something. Would definitely be a healthy feature just for these things.




Edit: Final point before I'm shutting up. Pivot's a good tool to teach you the basics of movements in animation as you said, McToast. I can tell you that tweening is part of movements for animation, learning how and when to use them is learning how to animate movements.
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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby MCToast » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:54 pm

Learning animation shouldn't include tweens... It has nothing to do with learning animation.

If it's not used for animating the stick figure, I agree.

Also animating at 30 fps on ones is fucking stupid.
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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby Chris » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:01 pm

Tweening could be good.
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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby Caleb » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:16 pm

MCToast wrote:Learning animation shouldn't include tweens... It has nothing to do with learning animation.

Professional animators tween a lot so they can get enough frames done for them to get the deadline right, doesn't take away in the quality of their animation because they know how to use tweening. It's a pretty big part of animating nowadays, therefore learning it is pretty huge.

MCToast wrote:Also animating at 30 fps in ones is fucking stupid.

That's 100% opinion based. 30 fps is the lowest game animation standard you can find nowadays (60 is the bandwagon for console games now, but that's all tweening, even moreso than 30 fps was). Seeing as there's plenty games with good animators behind it, I'd rather say it's stupid not to animate in 30 fps if you're planning to get really good at animating, especially if you have a tweening tool that just means you click a couple times to get the desired quality for it.


Give some good reasons please.
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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby Chris » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:21 pm

(scool I AM COOL!
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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby Caleb » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:23 pm

7Th Day wrote:Mctoast you need to stop. Why are you acting like a b*tch?

Shut the fuck up. This is the debate area, we're debating. If you don't like it, don't visit the debate area.
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Re: Pivot Tweening

Postby MCToast » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:36 pm

Even these days, inbetweens are drawn by inbetweeners, see any anime studio working and you see they still do it by hand, not with tweens.

Animations are always animated on twos or threes, so you can add ones for extra fast movements if needed. This reduces costs and time. Tweens work in 3D obviously, but you can't use them in 2D animation for inbetweens. How would you even tween a drawn thing?

7Th Day, go fuck yours- oh, thanks Caleb.
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